And gets bits right. But because they’re interested in dealing with intra-racial dynamics rather than inter-racial ones (which is odd given the subject) they miss the forest for the trees.
They also put the tired bit in about successful black men “getting blondes.” Though four times as many black men marry non-black women as black women do, note how small those numbers are. 400,000 sounds like a lot, but in the entire scheme of things that’s something like 4%. But there is some real stuff. Think about the economics of scarcity. What happens to the value of a given good if it is in high demand but low quantity? What about a good that is in high quantity but relatively low demand?
The above is not surprising to me, and it should not be surprising to you, anyone reading the Assault.
I have repeatedly told everybody here that what is happening is that the cabal around Esha Moore, which includes Roslyn Holcolmb and Gina McCauley, is organizing to project their particular vile eugenics project and, more importantly, the racists ideology packaged with it, into the mainstream.
If you go back to the comment section of the post: Interlude: Final Word On Hot Ghetto Mess And Gina McCauley,
…then you will find a comment by me dated 2 August 2007. The comment says:
“It has begun. Mark this date 1 August 2007”
Further down you will find additional comments by me which say: “Next step: mark this date…”
These comments are reference points to demonstrate in retrospect that the cabal’s campaign has begun at various of their websites, and noted each new step that I saw (I didn’t do any particular research, I just skimmed various sites from time to time).
I have said earlier that these ladies are quite dangerous. USA Today and Comcast News where these items have appeared have a much greater reach than even BET.
The sites, as you know are NOT about interracial dating, they are about the denigration of black folks.
Now people can continue to stick their heads in the sand like ostriches, or you can pull them out and confront this new salvo in the war on black folks and the continuous attempt to engineer a war between black women and men.
Let me state with relish:
I TOLD YOU SO!
I think this problem is bigger than what you’re suggesting. Because the same thing is happening in other non-black populations. I’m seeing it in the classes I teach. Women are outcompeting their male counterparts. They are smarter, more driven, more focused.
It hit us first because we’re the miner’s canary. But it’s hitting other groups too. So whomever is advocating that black women see white men is advocating a short term tactic at best. Because soon this group will have the same class hurdles with white men as they have with black men.
Spence. You are talking about Andy Beveridge’s discovery about the gender income disparity. That’s one thing. It’s also an old thing as far as the black community is concerned. All you got to do is go back to the 1964 Moynihan Report.
This thing here is a whole other matter. What is happening here is that a clique of women are using the issue of interracial dating/marriage to push an altogether different agenda.
These women are not advocating interracial marriage due to an income disparity between genders, but because they argue that you, Spence, as a black man, are of an inferior stock. You likely are a beast. A violent misogynist who cares nothing about black women. Now if you agree that the vast majority of black men fit that description, then you would have no argument with these women. I do not agree, cause I look at the stats. Plus their reasoning is internally illogical. Which they know, but do not care.
That’s a whole different argument than the income disparity argument.
It is a different one. And it is very possible that this idea will become the norm…that black women will internalize this. I don’t think this is likely though. There ARE still issues–even though they may not be able to get other black women on their program, they may increasingly become spokespersons for one conservative issue or another.
Hey Lester,
Maybe it’s me, but it seems like I’ve been reading this same story for the past 20-30 years. It’s been in Ebony forever. It’s been in who-knows-how-many magazine and news features. But the story in the News didn’t shed any new light. It’s the same damned story.
My point of view on the whole thing is that race and love don’t mix, so marry/date whoever you want. My wife and I argue about that quite a bit, because she is of the staunch opinion – like most sisters I know – that interracial dating is an abomination before God – unless it’s a sister dating a white man. Then it’s OK because all brothers want a white woman anyway and what’s a sister to do?
Freedom means freedom all across the board. Sure, there are definitely brothers who date white because they prefer white. Same with sisters. Then there are those who married white because they actually love the other person. Personally, I think we’ve got much bigger issues to fret and debate about than who’s sleeping with who. Not to say you shouldn’t have put up the post at all, but just dropping in my two cents.
Thanks Keith. Here what I’m interested in is the circulation of the story even moreso than its content. It is the same story…so why does it reappear every now and then?
Lester,
Personally,I believe the reson why this story simply refuses to die is because it is still titillating and people still like to read about it. It’s infotainment masquerading as social commentary. The only ones being fooled into thinking that these white/black dating stories are breaking any kind of new ground are the ones with no institutional memory.
And, to be honest, because after all these years it’s still taboo. And it’s still about sex. And sexual mythology. Miss Anne meets Mandingo. King Kong in love with what’s-her-name-any-blonde-will-do.
It all sells, and it’s a lot easier to write about than the significantly deeper racial and socio-cultural issues that are beating up on cities like Detroit day after day.
Here’s still another blogpost on this issue in which Michael Fisher mentions black on black eugenics, and everybody else pretends he didn’t.
could you be more specific here? i can’t claim to understand what you’re talking about.
I understand now.
I did NOT pretend I didn’t hear what Michael said. I did hear what Michael said.
I don’t think it to be as important as Michael does. So a group of black women think black men to be inferior…and are pushing relationships with white men (among other things) as a result. Do YOU believe this? Do any black women you KNOW believe this?
What this story reveals IS bigger than inter-racial dating. And I acknowledge that…read the story again. But the big thing to me isn’t eugenics. The big thing to me is the growing power of women in comparison to their male counterparts. This dynamic has absolutely NO historical comparison. The role of black people in this country has always been that of the miner’s canary.
The story here is that what’s happening to black (and Latino) men is swiftly happening to white men. This is a seismic shift. There are only two bloggers I routinely read who appear to get this…Craig Nulan, and Earl Dunovant.
“The story here is that what’s happening to black (and Latino) men is swiftly happening to white men.”
Spence. If you look at it from the point of view of the family, there is no seismic shift in White People Land.
The basic economic unit in society is the family. Unless all these white women end up unmarried, all this means is that the white family’s income is increasing by way of the women’s income increasing.
That may be an interesting phenomenon, but the relevant question for black folk is only: How does affect us?
Also, does it have any relevance to the black family, as this basic economic unit is undergoing incredible socio-economic stress.
Lastly, are you saying that white men are being affected by the same forces as Black men? In the same manner?
You’ve said this before–the idea about the fundamental unit of society being the family.
I am suggesting that the white family’s income will NOT increase…unless the income the white woman makes offsets the income her white male spouse makes. if what is happening in places like suburban detroit is any indicator the income of white men are dropping like ROCKS.
You are right to ask how these dynamics will affect the black family. I agree with Craig’s assessment fully. Unless black people pursue common local interests NOT on the basis of some imagined connection (blood, race, culture, etc.) but on the fact that we live in the same segregated environment and face the same issues, we’re going to be jacked.
BUT I am also interested in the aggregate picture. Because the reality is that we are ALL going to be jacked…black folks will just get it first. Whites won’t protect each other. The current administration for example supports for all intents and purposes the white american nationalism. if the minnesota bridge fiasco was even half the scale of new orleans, the administration would’ve visited for a press op…then let it rot.
blacks and whites are NOT the same, mind you. we know black people of the same educational background, the same income, the same neighborhood, die sooner, and suffer more. we have to deal with a wide variety of environmental and psychic stress that whites don’t have to go through.
with all of that said though the ECONOMIC pressures that we’ve gone through–the loss of jobs in the manufacturing sector combined with the loss of benefits and the decreased ability to save, etc. etc. those things? eventually they end up hitting whites too.
as an aside i’ve also been thinking about the hot ghetto mess stuff. i disagree with you about its importance. there are so many black people that you can find us doing almost anything for good and for ill. the question though is what does “average black poverty” look like? then the question becomes, where does black poverty come from? and then after THAT the question is NOT “what do white folk think when they see these images” but rather “what do black folk think when they see these images”?
these conversations are related because i argue that black people (just like their white counterparts) do not want to spend ANY TIME helping people they don’t think deserve help. and as soon as they are exposed to the “hot ghetto mess” images they are going to become even more conservative on black poverty than they already are. and this will make it much harder to engage in the type of cross-class work that i THINK that you support.
Spence…
“with all of that said though the ECONOMIC pressures that we’ve gone through–the loss of jobs in the manufacturing sector combined with the loss of benefits and the decreased ability to save, etc. etc. those things? eventually they end up hitting whites too.”
Ok? Which means what in the context of defeating white supremacy?
Spence…
“i argue that black people (just like their white counterparts) do not want to spend ANY TIME helping people they don’t think deserve help. and as soon as they are exposed to the “hot ghetto mess” images they are going to become even more conservative…”
In this context, WHICH black people (“that black people…”)do you mean?
Why would the images cause enough disgust?/disdain??disapproval? among these “black people” to have them refrain from “being conservative on black poverty”.
Lastly, Spence, in terms of raw economic spending power. Where among black folks does that lie?
As to the question, where does black poverty come from?
I think the answer is obvious: The organization of that spending power.
in the context of defeating white supremacy, this means that defeating white supremacy helps whites as well…because not all whites benefit from white supremacy in the same way.
“which black people do you mean?”
Here? i mean black people. Not “bourgie black people”. Not “well educated black people.” I mean “black people.” Without regard to education, to ideology, to income.
People in general have been socialized to believe in a series of values related to the protestant work ethic. Nevermind that this isn’t how wealth is produced, and never has been. But with black people you see this in the writing of most major black thinkers, again without regard to ideology. From conservatives like Booker to nationalists like Garvey to integrationists like King.
When people are presented with the image of someone who LOOKS as if they’ve brought their problems on themselves, they don’t blame those problems on structural factors. They blame them on the individuals.
Now what you’re saying is that they blame those problems on these PARTICULAR individuals because they represent an embarassment to black people. This probably plays SOME role…but not much.
If black spending power were organized differently….I believe black poverty would still exist.
Ok. Let’s take this one step at a time.
First:
“because not all whites benefit from white supremacy in the same way.”
Agreed. But they all do benefit (in different ways)?
So how would the destruction of white supremacy be helping whites? I mean given that they all benefit from it, though in different ways?
This is going to take a bit. The quick version is that white supremacy makes whites in general less human, more ignorant. those benefits they receive in comparison to us come at a serious cost.
what type of person would kill a young boy brutally JUST for whistling at a white woman?
Removing white supremacy will make whites more human, less ignorant.
“The quick version is that white supremacy makes whites in general less human, more ignorant.”
Well, that supposes that whites FEEL less human. I don’t see any evidence for that. Besides, less human compared to what? The values that come ith the sytem within wihich they live, are raised, and educated?
Certainly they can not feel that they are less ignorant than you and I. Otherwise why would they observe the phenomenon of a non-white seeking education from an academia controlled by white supremacy?
Beyond that, why would the knowledge and comfort of knowing that one may be poor, one may be uneducated, but one still is not a Nigger be outweight by a morality that only exists outside of the system of white supremacy?
In other words, to put it crudely, you got a lot of faith in Massa’s supposed moral “conflict” in being Massa.
Moreover, being the ones in power, white folks have the choice of ceasing the practice or ceasing to benefit from the practice of white supremacy and “becoming more human”. I don’t see any making that choice en masse.
Spence…
“with all of that said though the ECONOMIC pressures that we’ve gone through–the loss of jobs in the manufacturing sector combined with the loss of benefits and the decreased ability to save, etc. etc. those things? eventually they end up hitting whites too.”
Well, that may be the case. However, the traditional response by the average white folks to such conditions was to squeeze non-whites even harder — shut them out of the labor market etc. So why should it be different this time? becasue white women professionals are getting paid more than white male professionals in certain cities?
i don’t think there is a moral conflict going on at all. to the extent they have any feelings about the mater they think that this is the way the world should be. but you don’t need to “feel” less human to “be” less human. there are a whole lot of folks who probably FEEL they can flow like rakim, score like mike, sing like aretha. that doesn’t make it so. we would or SHOULD categorize those people who feel that way, given evidence to the contrary, as delusional. and given that their delusion prevents them from seeing what’s coming, their blindness endangers them. we know it endangers us.
(i mean feel less human in comparison to a set of universal principles.)
“i don’t see any making that choice en masse.”
then they’ll suffer en masse.
“why should it be different this time?”
it may not be different. but we’re ALREADY squeezed out. so the benefits they historically got from squeezing, won’t be there to be got.
Spence…
By definition, white supremacists invented the concept of race. That is the “white race” as opposed to the “non-whites”. Now, if individual white people were to follow the principles of Maat they would basically commit suicide. They would cease being “white”. But that still doesn’t take care of the white supremacists. Who, by definition, rule over non-white people. Moreover, the system of white supremacy is designed to keep a small minority of the world’s population in power over the vast majority of the world’s population.
Thus the supposed defection of white people from whiteness wouldn’t affect the system negatvely at all. It being designed to protect the minority whther that minority count 1 billion, 100 million, one million, 1000, 100, or 10 people.
Meaning, as longs as there is even one hite supremacist alive, by definition white supremacy is in effect. Otherwise the person couldn’t be a white supremacist.
michael, you have made me aware of something that i’d been aware of at a loose level, but i never really thought about this.
there are a whole host of black people who’ve been able to make loot on black cultural production. and here i’m not just talking about performers themselves, but promoters. now i know folks who promote events in detroit and elsewhere. and i know that these people don’t need whites for much of anything. not for renting out venues, not for designing fliers, not for their profit margins.
i don’t see these people–people like you–as being powerless. this notion of powerlessness is a fundamental component of neely fuller’s conception of white supremacy. i don’t agree–in fact i think ALMOST the exact OPPOSITE. you may agree INTELLECTUALLY, but i think your life and those of SOME of the people you’ve worked with, put that notion to rest and support my view of real black power rather than black powerlessness.
so with all that said i’d ask what you think the system of white supremacy consists of, and how you think this system has changed over time (if at all)?
Well, I don’t agree with Fuller on that either. Because there is a logical inconsistency in his argument. So let me quote myself from a post on the Assault from yesterday:
“The world-wide system of White Supremacy, being a system designed to maintain a small minority of the planet’s population in control of the vast majority of the population is a system based on power.
The question is, what is the source of that power? The ability to inflict violence upon it’s victims, certainly. However, it is a law of history that no system of control, especially one maintained by a numerical minority, can maintain itself by violence for long. The stress and cost involved is just too great. In other words, the power of violence is fleeting and unstable.
Thus, on balance, those who maintain that system have no power at all.
This is why they must create the illusion of power.
If one wants to maintain a system of control based on the illusion of power, then one better become an expert in the creation of images, words, ideologies, ideas, confusion, and double talk.”
Ok. Next.
You notice that I’ve begun a series on Black Assimilationists. That is becasue my basic argument is that white supremacy can not be maintained without the cooperation of a statum of it’s victims.
Any oppressive system is like that. It needs the:
Collaborators.
In our case known as the Assimilationists.
You see, Neely Fuller’s view of the absolute power of the white supremacist leads to the notion of “resistance is futile”. Ergo, the dismantling of the system of white supremacy is contingent upon the “good will” of the white supremacist. That is, somehow the victims need to negotiate, bargain for, their freedom. The incentive to the white supremacist? Basically Fuler argues that this would make the white supremacist whole as a human being. Which argument should be familar to you.
Which I think flies in the face of historical experience, as well as is inherently inconsistent logically.
White supremacy can only be dismantled by power. Since the white supremacist is, besides his ability to inflict relatively short term though ruthless and intense violence, powerless, there is no big problem in getting rid of the system. The key is the victim. The victim must not only have the will, but also clarity. And either convince the collaborator to cease collaboration or sweep him/her aside.
I don’t believe that any type of good will is needed. At the same time though I don’t that the only thing we need to do with black people in the American context is “wake them up” because we’ve been sleep or because we lack self-esteem. Institutions matter, they are not just a group of individuals. Which brings me to the vision of assimilationism that you have. What exactly separates assimilationists from those who are NOT assimilationists? How might we recognize them?
institutions mater. correct. institutions of power. istitutions through which black folk can exercise self-detemination.
oh my gawd…,
I can’t believe I missed out on all of this goodness.
oh…THIS conversation is what you’ve been referring to. i wondered.
The Detroit News picks up the interracial dating meme http://t.co/GN4rnRK7
I am black. Female. Progressive. And revolutionary. With that said my husband is a white man. I cringe when ‘sistahs’ act as if I hit the jackpot. Or women in interracial relationships take to brother bashing. I love and respect black men. Have been treated nothing but very well by them. Think that are the best thing that the Lord ever created. However, I just so happened to fall in love with a white man. The issue, is when black men state that the do not date women of color. Your mother is a woman of color. Your sisters and aunts. We, black women come in every hue and shape under the sun. How could you not be physically attracted to us. And the tired old generalizations that we all act one way is ridiculous. We are a wide range. We are a spectrum. We have more than one story. As from black women , it is a numbers game, and the odds are clearly against us. We simply outnumber eligible black men. Whatever your idea of eligible may be. I would ever bash black men, I will however say that they ave an advantage and they make good use of it. It really is simply supply and demand.